Warning LOONNNNNG context setting, skip ahead if you want my proposals only
While "magic" is a contentious word, it bears mentioning that discussion on the nature of this game has been very polarized in terms of how "spirituality" should be expressed in the game.
On one hand, there's Selectacorp himself, who proposed divine visions for the PC/magical girls to be controlled and MaxDS, who proposed an introduction that featured an introduction that featured a pact with "god" (well a force that may or may be interested in the PC's immortal soul, he did leave that part vague). On the other hand, you have Jefferson, who explicitly stated he don't want none of that D&D bullshit to go with his slice of religious corruption (those weren't his exact words, Jefferson wouldn't use no double negatives, but you get the idea)... what about me? I did "thumbs down the pseudo magical bullshit". Clearly on the Jefferson side then? Well, you'd be surprised, i'm not against having interactions that "bend" the rules of reality.
Even though i'm increasingly hard set in my Atheistic ways, I do recognize that "faith" can lead to moments of an... "otherwordly" quality, for want of a better term. Not representing this in game about religion... well it wouldn't be a game about religion if such events were not featured in it. The reason i've been less than enthusiastic with most proposals so far is because... they have generally felt too ham-fisted from a narrative standpoint. But Wang, you say, isn't it extremely difficult to get the balance right when it comes to writing about magic... No, it isn't. This 2017, and writing theory has evolved to the point where we've figured out how to consistently do magic in fiction right. For those of you who are interested, here's somebody that gives you the lowdown (you can follow up on his links if you want more) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYgIJRA_pbw
The TLDR (well, Too Long Didn't Watch would be more appropriate) of that is:
"Magic" or things are implicitly magical in nature (Superpowers, acts of god, etc) can be made to feel satisfying and organic if you follow a few clear rules
1) Magic should have well defined mechanics (rules) that it can't break
2) Magic shouldn't be used as a deus-ex-machina (i.e. fix-all narrative device)
3) Magic should be used sparingly
Why these rules work is a discussion in and off itself, but a simple run-down is
1) It's easier to suspend disbelief when there are clear rules, regardless of how fantastical these rules are. I mean, when you think about it, a lot of people accept that
explains why the earth orbits the sun, even most of them have, at best, only a pedestrian understanding of what the formula means, and that's a scientifically proven theory based on which we've put men on the moon. Well, a good many people don't accept it and attribute the astral motions to god instead, but that's a different story.
2) "...because magic" is the least convincing argument one can make in fiction, because that's you being narratively lazy and expecting the audience to just roll with it.
3) What makes magic... magical is that it's a rare instance where the laws of nature are suspended/don't apply/are bent. Make it too common however, and it quickly loses the sense of surprise and wonder that makes "magic" in fiction compelling in the first place.
So what issues do i have with the proposals made so far; Case by case
1)MaxDS's prologue proposal
I like the proposal from a Rule 1 perspective. There is a "thing" the PC possesses that will grow in power over time. These powers are well defined, and the way you improve them is by performing specific actions. 10/10.
From a Rule 2 perspective, however, we're literally kicking things off with a LITERAL Deus Ex Machina, (assuming this "thing" you talk with can be believed, and it's not Diabolus Ex Machina). 0/10
From a Rule 3 perspective, the narrative implies that magic (leveraging your divine influence) is going to be the ONLY thing you're doing this game. 0/10
In other words, this is essentially an erotic D&D campaign where you roleplay a Cleric with Request Guidance, Lesser Command, Entrall, Greater Command, etc. as your spell slots. Hence, my comment "pseudo-magical bullshit"
2)Selectacorp's vision proposal
While there is no problem with this proposal from a Rule 1 or 2 PoV, the fact that it happens EVERY time is what I have an issue with. The first time you get a Vision as player, it's gonna be impressive. The tenth time you get a vision scene however, all you'll be looking at is a half-naked model reading out a campy line, probably with average acting skills. As such, i spoke against it because i couldn't condone spending money on a feature that, imo, would quickly outstay its welcome.
3)Girls with "ESP-like" powers
1) How do we "mechanize" this in terms of giving the PC real in-game mechanical rewards? Or is this purely cosmetic
2) The girls having ESP is you saying the main reason for wanting them is "...because they are magic", which is only one step removed from "...because magic". To put that into context; how does the "angel incarnate" increase your influence? Oh, she just walks naked into the middle of a crowd and they just kind of fall to their knees in awe of her booty/booby-licious magnificence... let's be honest here, some people will be able to accept that at face value. Others won't.
3) So there's five of them in one country in the back-end of nowhere... is this X-Women, christian edition?
How does the Wang think we should do this, if at all?
I'm all for having magic in the game. In fact, I don't think we should half-ass "magical" scenes. However, in keeping the three rules, i think that
a) We should strive to ground most of the game in "non-magical" features (hence my proposals, which tend to look for very practical, real world ways in which faith can be spread and justified)
b) Magical scenes should exist in the game, but they should be rare instances
c) In keeping with b), above, scenes with a "magical" slant should therefore occur at the end of certain quest chains, the idea being that you need to work for them
d) They should be things that people can opt in and out of.
Specifically
Looking at Max's Idea
Getting a "divine brand of persuasiveness" carved into your body in a near-death encounter isn't a bad concept, however, it shouldn't occur at the beginning of the game, and it shouldn't be the entire gameplay, in and of itself. This could actually be the "ritual" that you perform in the "Old Faith" Icon route, for example. In terms of opting in and out, say you are treated to a pay-off scene and after that, she reaches, trance-like, for the ritual dagger. The player is then offered to take the knife away from her, resolving the event with one kind of mechanical bonus, or letting her have her way with him, getting a magic brand carved into him and another kind mechanical bonus.
The vision proposal
A naked woman spouting pseudo-religious spiels every few minutes isn't very compelling. A woman stepping out in public, naked as the day she was born to reveal the will of god to a half-crazed adulating mass of blood-thirsty onlookers at the end of a demanding quest-line leading up to that event... very different story.
Girls with ESP
Many girls with ESP? Feels like a marvel comic. One girl with ESP? She's special. I'm thinking that, as part of Sister Beatrice's plotline, you'll ultimately get to decide what she does with her "hypnotic voice"; Whip the masses into a homicidal frenzy? Make you millions performing christian sexually risque alt-rock in front of live audiences? Or do you have plans for her mouth that involve not speaking at all?
An Idea of my own: The dig site
An international archeological team is in the process of excavating an ancient temple with a clear Grecian flair. You can get involved with this dig site; you could get it closed down, with the archeologists getting thrown out of the country in varying states of rape and undress. If you help them finish unmolested however, they excavate a disturbingly life-like statue of a naked greek deity, believed to be Hercules. To celebrate the completion of the dig, a party is held, and the PC is naturally invited. That day, the wine proves to have an almost irresistible and incredibly potent quality; you can either call the whole thing off, or let things happen. If you go with the flow, the statue comes to life with a glorious erection, and the event becomes a drunken free for all. Turns out it wasn't hercules, but Bacchus. The next day, people wake up with bad hangovers, and the statue is back to its place.
Edit: For those of you who've been keeping up with the other threads... (wow, really?), the scenes i'm proposing for the Icons wouldn't be mutually exclusive with the mechanical bonuses i'm proposing; i'd posit that you get those anyway. However, the special bonuses would be tied to how you resolve specific scenes, where things can get weird.
While "magic" is a contentious word, it bears mentioning that discussion on the nature of this game has been very polarized in terms of how "spirituality" should be expressed in the game.
On one hand, there's Selectacorp himself, who proposed divine visions for the PC/magical girls to be controlled and MaxDS, who proposed an introduction that featured an introduction that featured a pact with "god" (well a force that may or may be interested in the PC's immortal soul, he did leave that part vague). On the other hand, you have Jefferson, who explicitly stated he don't want none of that D&D bullshit to go with his slice of religious corruption (those weren't his exact words, Jefferson wouldn't use no double negatives, but you get the idea)... what about me? I did "thumbs down the pseudo magical bullshit". Clearly on the Jefferson side then? Well, you'd be surprised, i'm not against having interactions that "bend" the rules of reality.
Even though i'm increasingly hard set in my Atheistic ways, I do recognize that "faith" can lead to moments of an... "otherwordly" quality, for want of a better term. Not representing this in game about religion... well it wouldn't be a game about religion if such events were not featured in it. The reason i've been less than enthusiastic with most proposals so far is because... they have generally felt too ham-fisted from a narrative standpoint. But Wang, you say, isn't it extremely difficult to get the balance right when it comes to writing about magic... No, it isn't. This 2017, and writing theory has evolved to the point where we've figured out how to consistently do magic in fiction right. For those of you who are interested, here's somebody that gives you the lowdown (you can follow up on his links if you want more) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYgIJRA_pbw
The TLDR (well, Too Long Didn't Watch would be more appropriate) of that is:
"Magic" or things are implicitly magical in nature (Superpowers, acts of god, etc) can be made to feel satisfying and organic if you follow a few clear rules
1) Magic should have well defined mechanics (rules) that it can't break
2) Magic shouldn't be used as a deus-ex-machina (i.e. fix-all narrative device)
3) Magic should be used sparingly
Why these rules work is a discussion in and off itself, but a simple run-down is
1) It's easier to suspend disbelief when there are clear rules, regardless of how fantastical these rules are. I mean, when you think about it, a lot of people accept that
explains why the earth orbits the sun, even most of them have, at best, only a pedestrian understanding of what the formula means, and that's a scientifically proven theory based on which we've put men on the moon. Well, a good many people don't accept it and attribute the astral motions to god instead, but that's a different story.
2) "...because magic" is the least convincing argument one can make in fiction, because that's you being narratively lazy and expecting the audience to just roll with it.
3) What makes magic... magical is that it's a rare instance where the laws of nature are suspended/don't apply/are bent. Make it too common however, and it quickly loses the sense of surprise and wonder that makes "magic" in fiction compelling in the first place.
So what issues do i have with the proposals made so far; Case by case
1)MaxDS's prologue proposal
I like the proposal from a Rule 1 perspective. There is a "thing" the PC possesses that will grow in power over time. These powers are well defined, and the way you improve them is by performing specific actions. 10/10.
From a Rule 2 perspective, however, we're literally kicking things off with a LITERAL Deus Ex Machina, (assuming this "thing" you talk with can be believed, and it's not Diabolus Ex Machina). 0/10
From a Rule 3 perspective, the narrative implies that magic (leveraging your divine influence) is going to be the ONLY thing you're doing this game. 0/10
In other words, this is essentially an erotic D&D campaign where you roleplay a Cleric with Request Guidance, Lesser Command, Entrall, Greater Command, etc. as your spell slots. Hence, my comment "pseudo-magical bullshit"
2)Selectacorp's vision proposal
While there is no problem with this proposal from a Rule 1 or 2 PoV, the fact that it happens EVERY time is what I have an issue with. The first time you get a Vision as player, it's gonna be impressive. The tenth time you get a vision scene however, all you'll be looking at is a half-naked model reading out a campy line, probably with average acting skills. As such, i spoke against it because i couldn't condone spending money on a feature that, imo, would quickly outstay its welcome.
3)Girls with "ESP-like" powers
1) How do we "mechanize" this in terms of giving the PC real in-game mechanical rewards? Or is this purely cosmetic
2) The girls having ESP is you saying the main reason for wanting them is "...because they are magic", which is only one step removed from "...because magic". To put that into context; how does the "angel incarnate" increase your influence? Oh, she just walks naked into the middle of a crowd and they just kind of fall to their knees in awe of her booty/booby-licious magnificence... let's be honest here, some people will be able to accept that at face value. Others won't.
3) So there's five of them in one country in the back-end of nowhere... is this X-Women, christian edition?
How does the Wang think we should do this, if at all?
I'm all for having magic in the game. In fact, I don't think we should half-ass "magical" scenes. However, in keeping the three rules, i think that
a) We should strive to ground most of the game in "non-magical" features (hence my proposals, which tend to look for very practical, real world ways in which faith can be spread and justified)
b) Magical scenes should exist in the game, but they should be rare instances
c) In keeping with b), above, scenes with a "magical" slant should therefore occur at the end of certain quest chains, the idea being that you need to work for them
d) They should be things that people can opt in and out of.
Specifically
Looking at Max's Idea
Getting a "divine brand of persuasiveness" carved into your body in a near-death encounter isn't a bad concept, however, it shouldn't occur at the beginning of the game, and it shouldn't be the entire gameplay, in and of itself. This could actually be the "ritual" that you perform in the "Old Faith" Icon route, for example. In terms of opting in and out, say you are treated to a pay-off scene and after that, she reaches, trance-like, for the ritual dagger. The player is then offered to take the knife away from her, resolving the event with one kind of mechanical bonus, or letting her have her way with him, getting a magic brand carved into him and another kind mechanical bonus.
The vision proposal
A naked woman spouting pseudo-religious spiels every few minutes isn't very compelling. A woman stepping out in public, naked as the day she was born to reveal the will of god to a half-crazed adulating mass of blood-thirsty onlookers at the end of a demanding quest-line leading up to that event... very different story.
Girls with ESP
Many girls with ESP? Feels like a marvel comic. One girl with ESP? She's special. I'm thinking that, as part of Sister Beatrice's plotline, you'll ultimately get to decide what she does with her "hypnotic voice"; Whip the masses into a homicidal frenzy? Make you millions performing christian sexually risque alt-rock in front of live audiences? Or do you have plans for her mouth that involve not speaking at all?
An Idea of my own: The dig site
An international archeological team is in the process of excavating an ancient temple with a clear Grecian flair. You can get involved with this dig site; you could get it closed down, with the archeologists getting thrown out of the country in varying states of rape and undress. If you help them finish unmolested however, they excavate a disturbingly life-like statue of a naked greek deity, believed to be Hercules. To celebrate the completion of the dig, a party is held, and the PC is naturally invited. That day, the wine proves to have an almost irresistible and incredibly potent quality; you can either call the whole thing off, or let things happen. If you go with the flow, the statue comes to life with a glorious erection, and the event becomes a drunken free for all. Turns out it wasn't hercules, but Bacchus. The next day, people wake up with bad hangovers, and the statue is back to its place.
Edit: For those of you who've been keeping up with the other threads... (wow, really?), the scenes i'm proposing for the Icons wouldn't be mutually exclusive with the mechanical bonuses i'm proposing; i'd posit that you get those anyway. However, the special bonuses would be tied to how you resolve specific scenes, where things can get weird.
Comment